14 April 2008 @ 11:34 pm
 
Salon has been publishing a series of pro-Clinton pieces, claiming, basically, that to be an Obama supporter, you must be a sexist and hate Hillary because she's a woman.

Here's the thing, folks: I don't like Hillary Clinton because she's Hillary Clinton.

First, I think she's smug and dishonest. Now, that's not all that odd for a politician; all politicians are smug and dishonest to one extent or another. However, I think Hillary's more so than most. And the dishonesty is often about things (hello, Bosnia!) that are easy to check in the media record, or easy to disprove (35 years of public-service experience?!) with very little digging. Reasonable people can disagree over whether working-class Americans are bitter; reasonable people don't disagree that Hillary has never been shot at by snipers. Now, there are many men who are more smug and dishonest than Hillary Clinton. There are, likewise, many women who are far, far less smug and dishonest than Clinton. Calling Clinton, specifically, smug and dishonest does not a sexist make. But neither does Clinton's femaleness make her any less smug or dishonest.

Further, I think Clinton is divisive. I think she is divisive because she is Hillary Clinton. When Georgia Republicans were after Zell "Democrat Keynote Speaker At The Republican Convention" Miller during his Senate campaign, their ads featured Zell talking about how much he loves Hillary Clinton. A hardcore Republican party-liner would vote against a tax-cut bill if the Clinton name were attached as a co-sponsor. And this is the real problem with the Clinton campaign and the idea of a putative Clinton Presidency: while her policy plans don't differ in many major ways from Obama's, there is much less chance Clinton would ever be able to convince a closely divided Congress to back her policies. Again, this is not a sexist observation: the same problem would attach if Bill Clinton were somehow to arrange to return for a third term. The Clinton name simply causes fits of irrational apoplexy in conservatives.

I don't like Clinton because--barring a miracle--she can't win the primary, and she continues to pretend that she can. It's Naderesque dishonesty and self-delusion, and, as somebody who fell for Nader's line in 2000, I'm doing my best to convince my fellow Democrats and assorted other Democrat-voting liberals not to make the same mistake I did. I feel the same way about Nader this year as I do about Clinton: you're wasting your supporters' time and money. And, unless Nader has recently undergone a sex change, I don't think that's sexist, either.

And, yes, I don't like Clinton, because for the first time since I've been able to vote, I can happily say that there's a candidate I can vote for. In 1996, I held my nose and voted for Clinton despite the messes of his first term. In 2000 and 2004, I voted against George W., because (in 2000) he was the idiot son of a loser President, and (in 2004) he was on his way to becoming the worst disaster to befall our country in nearly a century and a half. In 2008, we have the chance to elect somebody who has the potential to be truly transformative to the Presidency, and instead we're wasting time and money on a primary campaign that makes John "Did I mention I'm FUCKING 72 GODDAMN YEARS OLD" McCain look better with every passing day. Yes, Barack Obama has flaws. Lots of them. That doesn't change the fact that he's inspired me to do more work for a political campaign this year alone than I've done before in my life.

Those, Salon, are the reasons I don't like Hillary Clinton. One of the bedrock principles of feminism is, as I understand it, the radical idea that women should be treated as individuals. (I know, crazy, right?) So, here I am, treating Hillary Clinton as an individual, and as one that I happen to dislike. My reasons don't spring from the fact that she has a vagina, but from the fact that she is Hillary Rodham Clinton, and she has made a number of choices in her life that I disagree with. I am judging her on her own personal, individual merits, and she is coming up woefully short. If you think that makes me a sexist, then you clearly don't understand the term.
 
 
( Post a new comment )
Learn to love me, assemble the ways...: Bugs Apprehensive[info]geah on April 15th, 2008 06:38 am (UTC)
Obama Is Your Dream Candidate!
Like you, he says he loves America but he obviously hates it, he thinks white people are racist stereotypes, he looks down on white rural folks, and he's happy to be married to a woman who has never been proud of her country her entire adult life.

Heck, your have so much adoration for Obama, I'll bet you didn't even mind it when he publicly humiliated his grandmother and compared her to his psychopathic pastor.

Hey, I'll admit it. I thought Obama was something special. I voted for him. I regret my decision. He has some scary, ugly attitudes that, if a pure white man had the same attitudes toward blacks, you'd want the guy tarred and feathered.

Hillary, of course, is just someone who is fixated on power, just as her husband is fixated on money. Neither cares where it comes from and long as the acquire it.

McCain is like Dole, Kerry and Gore who have a "Hey, it's my turn to be President" attitude that is pretty sad, pathetic and entitled. But, unlike the other three, McCain is actually going to get the office, just as Pres. GHWBush did.

Edited at 2008-04-15 06:39 am (UTC)
Miggity-zick Sniggity-zee: blahblah[info]mcsnee on April 15th, 2008 07:06 am (UTC)
Re: Obama Is Your Dream Candidate!
Like you, he says he loves America but he obviously hates it, he thinks white people are racist stereotypes, he looks down on white rural folks, and he's happy to be married to a woman who has never been proud of her country her entire adult life.

Blah blah blah. Let me know when you finish reading off Republican talking points, and we'll have a substantive discussion about Obama's actual shortcomings.
Learn to love me, assemble the ways...: Foghorn Hands on Hips[info]geah on April 15th, 2008 08:12 am (UTC)
Re: Obama Is Your Dream Candidate!
I hate to break it to you, but those are Obama's talking points.

His wife hates America. Deal.

Her quotes:

"The life that I'm talking about that most people are living has gotten progressively worse since I was a little girl. . . . So if you want to pretend like there was some point over the last couple of decades when your lives were easy, I want to meet you!"

Is she kidding?

"For the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of my country, and not just because Barack has done well, but because I think people are hungry for change."

"After an invocation by the Reverend Jerry Corbett and an introduction by the mayor of Cheraw, Obama came to the pulpit. 'You all got up bright and early just for me?' she asked the mostly elderly, almost all-black crowd. Yes!' they roared. Obama continued, 'On behalf of my church home and my pastor, Reverend Wright, I bring greetings.'"

I see. She's Wright's spokeswoman. How nice.

This isn't from some imaginary Republican Talking Points memo, this is from The New Yorker. You might want to try reading it.

Then there was all that hypocritical BS from her telling poor people to live a life of poverty and service, while she's raking in mid-six-figures.

So, really, if you want to be honest with yourself--and I suspect you do--you'll know that the real "blah blah blah" in this exchange is your reflexive reliance on the "Republican talking points" canard.


Miggity-zick Sniggity-zee: er[info]mcsnee on April 15th, 2008 08:38 am (UTC)
Re: Obama Is Your Dream Candidate!
So, really, if you want to be honest with yourself--and I suspect you do--you'll know that the real "blah blah blah" in this exchange is your reflexive reliance on the "Republican talking points" canard.

Let's have a look, shall we?

he says he loves America but he obviously hates it,

Source? Could it be this Republican talking-point rag?

he thinks white people are racist stereotypes,

Source? Could it be this Republican talking-point rag?

he looks down on white rural folks,

Source? It surely isn't that "bitter" comment, because not even your elephant-colored glasses could be enough to allow you to misinterpret that comment so simplistically.


The life that I'm talking about that most people are living has gotten progressively worse since I was a little girl. . .

In a lot of measurable ways, that's entirely true--for example, in inflation-adjusted wages, or in the gap between what a factory worker makes and what the CEO who fucks his company over makes.

I know you live in a bubble there in Malibu, but for the rest of the country, things are not exactly peachy right now. I'm lucky that I've got law school coming up next month, so my layoff isn't hurting me very much--certainly not as much as it's hurting the other eight guys in my office who got laid off.

"For the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of my country, and not just because Barack has done well, but because I think people are hungry for change."

“What I was clearly talking about was that I’m proud in how Americans are engaging in the political process,” she said.

“For the first time in my lifetime, I’m seeing people rolling up their sleeves in a way that I haven’t seen and really trying to figure this out — and that’s the source of pride that I was talking about,” she added.

When asked if she had always been proud of her country, she replied “absolutely” and said she and her husband would not be where they are now if not for the opportunities of America.


Somebody who is such an enthusiastic supporter of George W. Bush as you are ought not to leap with both feet on a person who expresses a commonly held sentiment poorly.
Learn to love me, assemble the ways...: Foghorn Hands on Hips[info]geah on April 15th, 2008 04:13 pm (UTC)
Re: Obama Is Your Dream Candidate!
Dude, I only look at NewsMax if it comes up in a Google search. LGF hasn't been interesting in quite a while. So, your examples of my sources are pointless.

I will show you the courtesy of assuming you come up with your opinions on your own based on your own experiences. Please show me the same respect. I read your LJ because I like to see opinions different from mine (and I can back that up with my reading list below).

Obama, like so many elitist liberals (and some blue-blood conservatives), do, in fact, look down on white rural folk. They think they're stupid gun totin', God-fearin', racist, xenophobes, and that is exactly what Obama said.

Mr. and Mrs. Obama can backpedal all you want, but the fact is, they tell you what they think...and then when the "wrong" people hear it, they scramble to "explain" what they "actually meant." Are you going to believe them, or your lying ears?

Now, if you want an idea of what I read, I'll point you to http://www.realclearpolitics.com -- a site I highly recommend.

I have some homework for you:

Here's something from Slate:
http://www.slate.com/id/2188487/

And the NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/15/opinion/15herbert.html?_r=1&ref=opinion&oref=slogin

The Washington Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/14/AR2008041402649.html

And, of course, a black man:
http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell041508.php3
Miggity-zick Sniggity-zee: er[info]mcsnee on April 15th, 2008 04:49 pm (UTC)
Re: Obama Is Your Dream Candidate!
I will show you the courtesy of assuming you come up with your opinions on your own based on your own experiences.

See, I was showing you the courtesy of assuming that your spiteful remark "Like you, he says he loves America but he obviously hates it," must have been nothing more than a regurgitated "You're liberal and therefore you hate America" knee-jerk conservative talking point. Because, frankly, I'm not sure why I'd call somebody who believes that about me a friend.

As for your links, I broadly agree with the NY Times article and the Washington Post piece. I think the Slate reading is a possible reading of what he said, but that it's unlikely he meant it in the way they're trying to claim he meant it. And the next time Thomas Sowell writes anything I find worth reading will be the first time.
Learn to love me, assemble the ways...: Foghorn Hands on Hips[info]geah on April 16th, 2008 06:36 am (UTC)
Re: Obama Is Your Dream Candidate!
There's nothing I see in your blog that makes me think you love America. You're always down on our country, its people, its motives in the world...everything, really.

You know, it's one of the big reasons that I'm a former liberal. As a liberal, I notices that all my liberal friends were down on the country. Everything sucks. We're greedy. We're evil. We're no better than our enemies.

And, I didn't feel that way. I thought our country was great. We're generous. We do good. Our enemies build walls to keep people in, while we worry about how to keep the rest of the world from moving in.

I started the Reagan Administration hating him and conservatives. By the end, I was on his side. He had kicked the butt of the Soviet Union without firing a shot. My liberal friends got all bent out of shape when he called the Soviet Union the Evil Empire. They insisted that we had done bad things, so we had no business pointing fingers--my first real experience with the absurdity of moral equivalence. The fact was, the Soviet Union was a huge, oppressive prison camp. The United States is a land of freedom and opportunity...all you have to do is avail yourself of all it has to offer.

So, if you want me to believe you love America, then I suggest you express that love in your blog, as that's all I have to go on.

Liberals do hate America. They consider us to be a racist, sexist, bigoted and homophobic nation. They think we're imperialists. They think we live in a police state. They think Americans are stupid because they voted for Pres. Bush. They think Americans are violent because they want to own guns.

Conservatives never said America sucked when Pres. Clinton ran things. They say that America is great, but they weren't hot on who was running things. Liberals think America is awful if a Republican is President, and they want to move to Canada or France. You never hear a conservative say he's leaving America is Obama is elected president...that's because it's their country, no matter who is president.

Obama and his wife have presented us with so much evidence that shows us they have contempt for America and its citizens...right down to their choice of pastor--a psychopath who blames America for everything from AIDS to 9/11. Not only do they dig Wright's scene, but they take their children to hear his anti-America ravings, so their kids will grow up to have the same values.

It's time for you to take a hard look in the mirror and think about what image is projected.

Miggity-zick Sniggity-zee: meh[info]mcsnee on April 16th, 2008 07:45 am (UTC)
Re: Obama Is Your Dream Candidate!
You know who never wins football games? Cheerleaders. You know who never improves things? The jerk who thinks they're good enough. You know where America would be if your brand of rah-rah, "My Country, Right Or Wrong" conservatives ran things? Living in the late 1700s.

So when I look at America, I say, yeah, we're doing all right--certainly a lot better than a lot of other places are doing. But I also see a lot of room for improvement, and I'm involved enough to point that out and try to figure out ways to fix them, or at least make people who have the ability to fix them aware of the problems.

Because there are problems. It takes willful blindness not to see them. And the more you talk, the more obvious it becomes that you're determined to ignore anything that might tarnish your 1950s, American-exceptionalist image of the country.

I've got no problem with optimism, but optimism that doesn't reflect reality is just plain idiocy, and you're veering awfully close to it.


right down to their choice of pastor--a psychopath who blames America for everything from AIDS to 9/11.

You really want to go down this road? Really? Have you looked at your favorite President's religious heroes and confidantes? Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell also blame America and Americans for 9/11. But because you agree with George W. Bush, you pooh-pooh his admiration of and consultation with them. I guess that means George Bush is an America-hater, right? And, since you admire him, you must also despise America and everything it stands for.

Or do you have trouble applying your own specious reasoning to yourself?
Learn to love me, assemble the ways...: Bugs Apprehensive[info]geah on April 16th, 2008 04:37 pm (UTC)
Re: Obama Is Your Dream Candidate!
"You know who never wins football games? Cheerleaders."

I didn't need to go any further, as this is so telling.

In fact, cheerleaders do win football games. In fact, the support of a loyal crowd is almost always mentioned by the players of a winning team. Have you ever seen a team go to the Super Bowl with fans booing the entire way, every time a pass is dropped, or a ball is fumbled or a tackle is missed?

Do you have any idea what the Home Field Advantage is about? Do you think it's about the grass? Or the shape of the stadium?

No. It's about the fans...and the cheerleaders who represent them and help inspire them.

Yes, I support out country loyally. I don't care who is President. I am dismayed when we aren't perfect, but I acknowledge that we're humans and make mistakes. That doesn't mean we aren't great--it just means we aren't perfect.

In your other post this morning, you focus on the inevitable errors our country makes, while glossing over the enormous amount of good we have brought to the world in the last 225 years.

I don't just disagree with you, [info]mcsnee, I feel badly for you. I know where you're coming from, and it sucks to be there.

I'll hold out hope that as you mature and your world view becomes a bit more sophisticated, you'll grow to understand the world a little better.

- - -

Oh, and let me address the Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell issue. Yeah, those guys are both clowns. No doubt. Did Pres. Bush attend their church for 20 years? Did he give them tens of thousands of dollars? Did he take his daughters to hear their bile throughout their formative years?

Let me help you--the answer is no.

What Pres. Bush did is just the typical cynical politician deal, which we can all either accept or grind out teeth over forever. He used those guys to get votes and money...lots of votes and money.

Had Obama only made one trip to Wright's church, you'd have a great point. But, that's not the case, and no amount of moral equivalence will make it so.



Miggity-zick Sniggity-zee[info]mcsnee on April 16th, 2008 05:34 pm (UTC)
Re: Obama Is Your Dream Candidate!
I am dismayed when we aren't perfect, but I acknowledge that we're humans and make mistakes. That doesn't mean we aren't great--it just means we aren't perfect.

This is the only thing you've said all day that I agree with.

My problem with your argument is that you don't, in fact, acknowledge that we're humans and make mistakes, and that, because of our greatness, those mistakes can have very far-reaching consequences, and that because of those consequences, in order to be the great country we say we are and believe we are, it is absolutely necessary to examine those mistakes in order that we don't repeat them.


Had Obama only made one trip to Wright's church, you'd have a great point. But, that's not the case, and no amount of moral equivalence will make it so.

No. Had Obama been elected to the Presidency, then sought the advice, spiritual and political, of Wright, then you'd have a great point. But he didn't, and won't, use his former pastor as a sounding board, whereas Bush has used, and will continue to use, the Christian Coalition when making policy decisions. He consulted, for example, Robertson prior to the Iraq invasion, and he consulted Falwell about nominations to the Supreme Court.

That goes quite a ways beyond "the typical cynical politician deal," especially since those judicial nominations came in Bush's second term--when he was no longer running for anything.
Miggity-zick Sniggity-zee[info]mcsnee on April 16th, 2008 08:06 am (UTC)
Re: Obama Is Your Dream Candidate!
I thought our country was great. We're generous. We do good.

The thing about these points, specifically, is that they reflect an unsupported view of the U.S.'s place in the world.

We tell ourselves that we're generous. But the U.S. lags behind Japan in real charitable dollars, and behind most of the rest of the industrialized world in charitable giving as a % of GDP.

We tell ourselves that we do good, but the evidence, again, is not there to support us. We had to be dragged kicking and screaming into WWII. In the name of anti-Communism, we've overthrown elected governments, supported dictators, and worked against our own interests all over the world. More recently, we've killed tens of thousands of foreigners in retaliation for attacks on our country with which they had nothing to do.

These are things that have happened. You can sweep them under the rug and pretend that they didn't, but doing so just makes you look foolish. You can minimize their importance, but, again, doing so makes those who know the facts question your judgment.

A liberal looks at these things and says, "Yes, we've done some pretty shitty stuff over the last 250 years. So let's try to figure out a way to do less shitty stuff from here on out. Let's focus on the freedoms and principles that made our country great to begin with, and figure out how to extend them to as many Americans as we can, and make sure that we stand for the freedoms and principles even when it's not convenient."

You look at these things and say, "Liberals are the problem. They talk about these things because they hate America."

Which position do you think is more likely to engender improvements?
Learn to love me, assemble the ways...: Bugs Apprehensive[info]geah on April 16th, 2008 03:30 pm (UTC)
Re: Obama Is Your Dream Candidate!
Thanks for making my original point.

You are fortunate to be born into the greatest country in the history of civilization and all you can do is see the imperfections. And, sadly, you think that the only way to love something is to criticize it.

I'm beginning to get an insight into your girl problems, I think. And, I'd hate to have you as a boss.
Miggity-zick Sniggity-zee: haha[info]mcsnee on April 16th, 2008 05:24 pm (UTC)
Re: Obama Is Your Dream Candidate!
Yes--I'm sure it'd be a joy working for you, right up until the day you fire your employee, out of the blue, because you can't criticize people when it might do some good.

You are fortunate to be born into the greatest country in the history of civilization and all you can do is see the imperfections.

Actually, no. I see both the imperfections and the things that make this country strong and great.

Whereas you see only an idealized version of America that only does "good."
maggie on the rocks[info]emeltee on April 15th, 2008 10:51 am (UTC)
Preach on, brother. Does it make me a sexist if I don't like her?
like a whispering in dark streets[info]flamingjune07 on April 15th, 2008 12:24 pm (UTC)
I'd like to add as a general comment here for anyone else reading this that I really, really hope that people don't overreact off of this and come away thinking "those crazy feminist bitches" instead of "those crazy Salon writers."

Because I am a feminist I do not declare that everyone voting not-Clinton is sexist. (Of course, that's easy for me in a non-theoretical fashion, since I myself voted Obama). I'd even consider voting for a woman, all other things being reasonably equal, simply because she's a woman and I do think it's about damn time this country had a female president -- but please, let it not be this woman, guys.
Paul[info]symposiarch on April 15th, 2008 02:34 pm (UTC)
For that matter, the clock's not out for a pair of tragic events making Pelosi the first female president.
Blacky Cat Speaks[info]ellawitch on April 15th, 2008 01:15 pm (UTC)
bravo! i don't like her either.
istealcookies[info]istealcookies on April 15th, 2008 02:20 pm (UTC)
I actually think Obama is waaaaay more smug than Clinton. That said, I am not going to choose a candidate based on personality.

And all politicians lie, or hides things (including Obama) so, perhaps it's a good thing that HIllary's lies are so transparent....at least we know up-front and they're not deeper and more sinister.
Paul: sarcastic antistupid[info]symposiarch on April 15th, 2008 02:30 pm (UTC)
Salon's logic is silly. I like strawberry yogurt and I like blueberry yogurt. However, 9 times out of 10, when faced with a choice of the two, I'll pick the blueberry yogurt.

Supporting one thing doesn't necessarily equate to not supporting another, competing thing. If Clinton gets the nod, I'll vote for her in November, but right now I'm pulling for Obama.
Jen[info]kappsgurl on April 15th, 2008 03:04 pm (UTC)
Don't you think that the saying, "There's no such thing as bad publicity," can be applied to this primary race? A close race is what got many young people (myself included) interested in politics back in 2000. It motivates people to go out and vote. The back and forth between Clinton and Obama, I think, is getting both their messages out there more often than McCain.
Everybody Loves Costner[info]st_sardonicist on April 15th, 2008 04:24 pm (UTC)
If you think that makes me a sexist, then you clearly don't understand the term.
There is no such thing as "feminism" in the singular, only "feminisms" in the plural, [info]mcsnee. Don't be so second-wave, gosh.
nico: barack[info]nico on April 15th, 2008 07:43 pm (UTC)
stop looking at my brain
seriously - my sentiments exactly (although I wasn't old enough to vote in 1996, I would've voted for Clinton). You are telepathic and/or amazing.
wends: 0bama 08[info]wends on April 15th, 2008 08:31 pm (UTC)
The day before Super Tuesday, my grandmother, a huge pro-women's rights author, sent an e-mail to every female of voting age that she knew and reminded us that it was our "duty as a woman" to vote for Hillary in order to get a woman in the White House.

I voted Obama, my mom didn't vote since she's registered republican (but always votes democrat) and my two aunts voted for Hillary because they were scared of my grandma.

Since Super Tuesday, my grandmother has sent me no less than a dozen propaganda e-mails and links explaining how it's my JOB to vote for Clinton.

Eventually I sent her an e-mail that basically said what you wrote here, and she sent me back a two line response - "Okay Wendy, thanks for your e-mail. I will stop sending you pro-women's rights emails." Nice enough, right, but if you think about it it's really a dig at me, calling me a female-hating hypocrite or something.

My grandma is scary, and she thinks the same way as these people do.



PS I want to get a ferret.
cosmicbandit[info]cosmicbandit on April 16th, 2008 04:25 am (UTC)
Maybe I'll write in Yosimite Sam
I cannot stand any of the candidates. Why do politicians have to be so damn skeezy?
Learn to love me, assemble the ways...: Foghorn Explain[info]geah on April 16th, 2008 04:39 pm (UTC)
Re: Maybe I'll write in Yosimite Sam
They're that way because they have to appeal to such a wide variety of people, all of whom have different agendas.

The "pure" candidates--Kucinich, Paul, Gravel, Nadar--all get about the same number of fringe votes, which are not nearly enough to get elected to a national office.

Really, I don't see any way around it.
Miggity-zick Sniggity-zee[info]mcsnee on April 16th, 2008 05:35 pm (UTC)
Re: Maybe I'll write in Yosimite Sam
I said above that one of your comments was the only thing you'd said all day that I agree with. I was wrong. I agree with this too.